Sample dialoges between observers

 

These emails were taken from the Chatroom 'PhACTboard' at http://www.netdesignlab.com/phactboard/messages/677.html

Posted by trib on September 10, 1999 at 16:35:35: In Reply to: MARFA LIGHTS posted by terry on September 09, 1999 at 20:53:08:

I've been there. You can see the interstate from the "watch-zone" and you can see the tailights on same said interstate but the "marfa" lights appear above a field no where near the interstate and it's moving headlamps/tailights. You should see the territory surrounding the Marfa area....low bluffs covered in black granite, glimmering granite pebbles everywhere...the area is ripe for light shows like that of Aurora Borealis...i imagine that something similar might be happening. Sorry for being so scientific, hee! The problem is that the frontage is owned by the state of Texas but the "lights area" or where they appear to be moving is privately owned with nothing on it but cattle and fences. I did trespass into this field and walked for at least a mile but the lights did not appear to get any closer or clearer. My friends present with me on the trip also wondered if there must be another road or that the interstate must turn back in the direction of the field even so without a spy satellite or a helicopter or permission to trespass we'll never know....i know one thing,,the people of Marfa don't want to know.

Posted by terry on September 09, 1999 at 20:53:08:

Will someone PLEASE explain to me how the Marfa lights can go on being 'unsolved' or at least open to speculation? In other words, why doesn't someone just go out and camp in the general area where the lights are seen for a few nights, instead of relying upon telescope viewing from the roadside? I don't get it!

Posted by Diane on October 14, 1999 at 23:56:25: In Reply to: MARFA LIGHTS posted by terry on September 09, 1999 at 20:53:08:

They are too scared to get close to the lights. They probably think it will invade their body. You know then turn into a marfa light through human combustion or something like that.

In Reply to: Re: MARFA LIGHTS posted by Diane on October 14, 1999 at 23:56:25:

"They are too scared to get close to the lights. They probably think it will invade their body. You know then turn into a marfa light through human combustion or something like that." Hmmm, yeah, same thing happened to me when I tried the Firecracker Burrito at Hot Tamales on 20th. Whew! Don't light a match.

Posted by Alexander on September 20, 1999 at 15:26:21: In Reply to: Re: MARFA LIGHTS posted by trib on September 10, 1999 at 16:35:35:

Just load a Model plane with a CCD camera and a TV transmitter - perhaps you can see something more with this easy spy technology..

Posted by Bruce A. WIlliamson on September 10, 1999 at 12:53:04: In Reply to: MARFA LIGHTS posted by terry on September 09, 1999 at 20:53:08:

The Marfa Lights caught my attention (as do any reports of lights seen at night. I study UFO reports). One of the members of the Georgia Skeptics told me that they determined that the Marfa Lights were auto headlamps. Proponents say that can't be since the lights have been seen for the past hundred years (but there can be no proof of those sightings). A group of Japanese investigators was shown on Sightings. They went away convinced that the lights were auto headlamps. There's also the fact that the lamps follow the highway which lends some credence to the auto headlamp theory. The problem with testing as you have described is that headlamps are visible for tens of miles. A unique color or pattern of lights would have to be used. Perhaps a yellow strobe (red is used by emergency vehicles and the eye is not as sensitive to blue as green or yellow). Police activity could explain why the lights are said to change color. There are similar lights that appear in the TN/NC area at a place that I think is called Brown Mountain.

Posted by Greg on September 10, 1999 at 08:40:52: In Reply to: MARFA LIGHTS posted by terry on September 09, 1999 at 20:53:08:

Good question Terry! I've read a number of good Marfa-debunking articles on the web -- they all say that the lights are headlights from the nearby interstate. The explenations sound plausible, but I've never been there. Still, no one has taken the ultimate test: Get a buddy to stand on the interstate and have him either jump up and down waving one of those red cone flashlights, light a flare or start a barbecue. Then the observers can tell for sure. OR simply drive the interstate with a blue light on your dashboard. Chances are you'd get pulled over by a cop, then you'd have a real light show. Man, those Left-coast skeptics are slackers! :) Greg

Posted by Greg on September 11, 1999 at 11:40:06: In Reply to: Re: MARFA LIGHTS posted by Greg on September 10, 1999 at 08:40:52:

Forget about my last suggestion. Maybe if someone can rent one of those giant traffic arrows. A good flashing yellow pointer ought to confuse the spectators. Greg

Posted by Bob Young on September 11, 1999 at 02:13:30: In Reply to: Re: MARFA LIGHTS posted by Greg on September 10, 1999 at 08:40:52:

A couple years ago I attended the SCICOP conference in Texas and discussed the Marfa Lights with a member of a Texas skeptics group. He said that they had looked in to the lights and that they were vehicles on a State or County road which dips between trees. They said that the ligths are often in pairs. Because of the terrain, it is also possible that other lights, even astronomical objects very near the horizon, or even slightly below with mirage conditions, on clear nights, might have been the source of sightings 100 years ago. Bob Young

 

This is from the Big Bend chatroom at http://www.big.bend.national-park.com/wwwboard/bigbchat.htm

Posted by Glenn (152.163.197.71) on February 11, 2001 at 13:16:36:

My first visit to Big Bend, made resrvations for R.V. filling up fast,how far to Marfa to see the lights and what is the best time to see them, Also McDonald Obsevatory what is best time to be there also.Understand alot of driving can be done inside the park,and Prude Ranch info. on all would be helpful.

Posted by dave (138.237.132.42) on February 12, 2001 at 10:44:39: In Reply to: What are the best times posted by Glenn on February 11, 2001 at 13:16:36:

I've got to agree with Jason that the Marfia lights are a disappointment. You stop along the highway at a roadside park that will be crowded with others scanning the sky for the lights. I never saw anything but headlights in the distance. I think the time is better spent in the park. Good luck

 

This was at Omni Magazines chatroom, now closed.

This is a dialogue between Scott LaRoche and Dennis Stacy at (http://www.omnimag.com/forums/edge/messages/55.html)

1.....Posted by Scott LaRoche on October 28, 1996 at 14:25:38:

The Marfa Mystery Lights of West Texas have been thrilling thousands for over a century. What are these ghost lights? Are they UFOs, as many people suspect? See for yourself.

2.....Posted by Dennis Stacy on November 05, 1996 at 17:08:49: In Reply to: Marfa Mystery Lights posted by Scott LaRoche on October 28, 1996 at 14:25:38:

Dennis: Dear Scott: Loved your Marfa Lights page! One other thing we apparently share in common is a love of the Big Bend. As the esteemed author, well, the author, anyway, of A Viewer's Guide to the Marfa Lights, I hope I may be permitted my two cents' worth on the subject. For one thing, I was curious as to why, having reproduced a couple of Ansen Seale's photos from my little pamphlet, you overlooked(?) the one by James Crocker which appears on page seven of same. Could it be because said photo doesn't support the headlight theory? In fact, if you'll examine the latter closely, you'll see that it contains both headlights -- and something else. The headlights are visible as a straight, once-broken line on the very righthand side of the picture. Whatever else the other thing is, it is clearly and obviously not automobile headlights. Unfortunately, the b&w reproduction is of very poor quality, compared to the color original. I don't claim to know what Crocker photographed -- nor do I in any way mean to suggest that it is anything remotely paranormal in nature. It's conceivable, after all, that the picture is a clever hoax, perhaps of a colleague running around on the desert floor with a flashlight, or some other light source, held high, risking being impaled by a Spanish Dagger in the process. However, I have been to the site where the photo was taken, in company with Crocker, and have no particular reason to doubt his account of the photo's circumstances. It is true that tourists will pull over to the roadside viewing area and make fools of themselves over distant automobile headlights om Hwy 67, but this rather begs the question, which is basically a chicken and egg one. Are we to assume, for example, that the so-called "Lights" came first, or that the Marfa Chamber of Commerce and Tourist Development Board, Inc., did? It's one thing to blame the latter for taking advantage of the former, whatever the former might be, but another thing altogether to accuse the latter of actually creating the former out of more or less thin air. After all, if there were no original stimulus whatsoever, we might expect to see roadside pull-overs for the Sanderson, Marathon and Alpine Lights, indeed for virtually any vantage point overlooking a remote highway by the dark of night. The fact of the matter is that so-called "ghost lights" have a long and honorable (and pre-auto) history, as in, variously, corpse lights, will-o'-the-wisp, fox fire, ignis fatuus, and so on, perhaps in common with St. Elmo's fire and ball-lightning. The latter was long regarded as anathema by atmospheric scientists, but is now generally recognized as a real phenomenon even though there is no commonly accepted comprehensive theory to account for its existence. The same is true of earthquake lights and glowing mountain peaks in the Andes, as a glance at the immense collected works of William Corliss would reveal in an instant, would you but take the time. So the fact that someone mistakes car headlights on Hwy 67 for the real Marfa Lights -- assuming there is such a thing -- doesn't disprove the phenomenon as such, it merely proves that what that particular person saw was indeed automobile headlights. There's a vast -- indeed, a world -- of difference between the two assumptions. It should go without saying that if there is a real luminous phenomena in the area, then neither ghosts nor aliens have anything remotely to do with it. That does not, however, preclude something unusual and entirely natural, but presently little understood, from occurring in and around Mitchell Flat outside Marfa. Just because you've seen a gullible believer make a fool of him or herself, doesn't render you immune to being a gullible skeptic. After all, all you've really observed is the observer, not the phenomenon itself, again, assuming there is one. But let's assume the real phenomenon only manifests one, two, three or four times a year. Bluntly, you show up for an hour with a pair of binoculars, witness some headlights and associated human behavior, and then close the file on the Marfa Lights -- Solved! -- as if they were supposed to manifest upon the minute of your arrival at the parking lot for your own personal inspection. (Crocker spent more than a hundred hours in the field before he came away with a single promising picture.) The Greeks had a six-letter word for this sort of attitude. It began with an h and ended in an s. Sincerely, Dennis Stacy

3.....Posted by Scott LaRoche on November 06, 1996 at 10:06:17

(Please forgive grammatical errors - it's very hard to reply to messages in this tiny Comments window.) : : The Marfa Mystery Lights of West Texas have been thrilling thousands for over a century. What are these ghost lights? Are they UFOs, as many people suspect? See for yourself. : Dear Scott: : Loved your Marfa Lights page! One other thing we apparently share in common is a love of the Big Bend.

: As the esteemed author, well, the author, anyway, of A Viewer's Guide to the Marfa Lights, I hope I may be permitted my two cents' worth on the subject. For one thing, I was curious as to why, having reproduced a couple of Ansen Seale's photos from my little pamphlet, you overlooked(?) the one by James Crocker which appears on page seven of same. Could it be because said photo doesn't support the headlight theory?

Scott: No. I already went through this with you, Dennis, a few months ago. It is quite easy to duplicate the results of that photograph just by opening the shutter and jiggling the camera around.

: In fact, if you'll examine the latter closely, you'll see that it contains both headlights -- and something else. The headlights are visible as a straight, once-broken line on the very righthand side of the picture. Whatever else the other thing is, it is clearly and obviously not automobile headlights.

Scott: Unfortunately, the b&w reproduction is of very poor quality, compared to the color original. I'd be happy to post the original. Again, this is quite easy to duplicate - even a Photo 101 student can do it. Put the camera on a tripod, open the shutter, and expose the film for a minute. Car headlights will appear as lines. Then have someone else - even the photographer, run around in front of the camera with a flashlight. Voila!

: I don't claim to know what Crocker photographed -- nor do I in any way mean to suggest that it is anything remotely paranormal in nature. It's conceivable, after all, that the picture is a clever hoax, perhaps of a colleague running around on the desert floor with a flashlight, or some other light source, held high, risking being impaled by a Spanish Dagger in the process. However, I have been to the site where the photo was taken, in company with Crocker, and have no particular reason to doubt his account of the photo's circumstances.

Scott: OK. Since you're a MUFON editor and contributor to Omni magazine and Fortean Times, I wouldn't expect you to be skeptical.

: It is true that tourists will pull over to the roadside viewing area and make fools of themselves over distant automobile headlights om Hwy 67, but this rather begs the question, which is basically a chicken and egg one. Are we to assume, for example, that the so-called "Lights" came first, or that the Marfa Chamber of Commerce and Tourist Development Board, Inc., did? It's one thing to blame the latter for taking advantage of the former, whatever the former might be, but another thing altogether to accuse the latter of actually creating the former out of more or less thin air. After all, if there were no original stimulus whatsoever, we might expect to see roadside pull-overs for the Sanderson, Marathon and Alpine Lights, indeed for virtually any vantage point overlooking a remote highway by the dark of night.

Scott: I don't think it's anything as complicated as that. I think the Lights are simply a superstition that has grown over the years, a la Bigfoot, the Bermuda Triangle, and Nessie. Many people, unfortunately, are blindly superstitious, and will accept the most fantastic tales. Marfa would be foolish not to take advantage of this money-making opportunity.

: The fact of the matter is that so-called "ghost lights" have a long and honorable (and pre-auto) history, as in, variously, corpse lights, will-o'-the-wisp, fox fire, ignis fatuus, and so on, perhaps in common with St. Elmo's fire and ball-lightning. The latter was long regarded as anathema by atmospheric scientists, but is now generally recognized as a real phenomenon even though there is no commonly accepted comprehensive theory to account for its existence. The same is true of earthquake lights and glowing mountain peaks in the Andes, as a glance at the immense collected works of William Corliss would reveal in an instant, would you but take the time.

Scott: I don't put much stock in old superstitions. Old tales of spooks and ghost lights don't mean much to me.

: So the fact that someone mistakes car headlights on Hwy 67 for the real Marfa Lights -- assuming there is such a thing -- doesn't disprove the phenomenon as such, it merely proves that what that particular person saw was indeed automobile headlights. There's a vast -- indeed, a world -- of difference between the two assumptions.

Scott: Then prove the Lights are of a mysterious source. It should be easy - hundreds of people see them each night. They've been photographed a million different ways, videotaped ad nauseum, yet not one person has been able to get one "up close". It should be pretty easy - the Lights are confined to a small area (right near a highway, uncoincidentally, hehe.) : It should go without saying that if there is a real luminous phenomena in the area, then neither ghosts nor aliens have anything remotely to do with it. That does not, however, preclude something unusual and entirely natural, but presently little understood, from occurring in and around Mitchell Flat outside Marfa. Just because you've seen a gullible believer make a fool of him or herself, doesn't render you immune to being a gullible skeptic. After all, all you've really observed is the observer, not the phenomenon itself, again, assuming there is one.

: But let's assume the real phenomenon only manifests one, two, three or four times a year. Bluntly, you show up for an hour with a pair of binoculars, witness some headlights and associated human behavior, and then close the file on the Marfa Lights -- Solved! -- as if they were supposed to manifest upon the minute of your arrival at the parking lot for your own personal inspection. (Crocker spent more than a hundred hours in the field before he came away with a single promising picture.) The Greeks had a six-letter word for this sort of attitude. It began with an h and ended in an s.

Scott: That's nice. The modern-day English language has a term for folks who believe tales without the slightest shred of proof

: An eight-letter word that begins with a g and ends with an e. BTW, did you see those fantastic Marfa Lights movies at that page I have linked? Amazing, eh?

Scott: I wonder why they won't place my personal account of the Marfa Lights on their page?

4..... Posted by Dennis on November 07, 1996 at 19:59:59:

: : (Please forgive grammatical errors - it's very hard to reply to messages in this tiny Comments window.) : : : The Marfa Mystery Lights of West Texas have been thrilling thousands for over a century. What are these ghost lights? Are they UFOs, as many people suspect? See for yourself. : : Dear Scott: : : Loved your Marfa Lights page! One other thing we apparently share in common is a love of the Big Bend. : : As the esteemed author, well, the author, anyway, of A Viewer's Guide to the Marfa Lights, I hope I may be permitted my two cents' worth on the subject. For one thing, I was curious as to why, having reproduced a couple of Ansen Seale's photos from my little pamphlet, you overlooked(?) the one by James Crocker which appears on page seven of same. Could it be because said photo doesn't support the headlight theory? : No. I already went through this with you, Dennis, a few months ago. It is quite easy to duplicate the results of that photograph just by opening the shutter and jiggling the camera around.

Dennis:No, you didn't go through this with me, Scott. I e-mailed you the above several months ago, true, but you either neglected or failed to respond to same.

: : In fact, if you'll examine the latter closely, you'll see that it contains both headlights -- and something else. The headlights are visible as a straight, once-broken line on the very righthand side of the picture. Whatever else the other thing is, it is clearly and obviously not automobile headlights. Unfortunately, the b&w reproduction is of very poor quality, compared to the color original. : I'd be happy to post the original. Again, this is quite easy to duplicate - even a Photo 101 student can do it. Put the camera on a tripod, open the shutter, and expose the film for a minute. Car headlights will appear as lines.

Dennis:Then have someone else - even the photographer, run around in front of the camera with a flashlight. Voila!

: : I don't claim to know what Crocker photographed -- nor do I in any way mean to suggest that it is anything remotely paranormal in nature. It's conceivable, after all, that the picture is a clever hoax, perhaps of a colleague running around on the desert floor with a flashlight, or some other light source, held high, risking being impaled by a Spanish Dagger in the process. However, I have been to the site where the photo was taken, in company with Crocker, and have no particular reason to doubt his account of the photo's circumstances. OK, so one minute you say the photo can be duplicated by jiggling the lens, the next by having a colleague run around with a flashlight. Well, which is it? And if it's so easy to do, why don't you duplicate it and post your own picture? : OK. Since you're a MUFON editor and contributor to Omni magazine and Fortean Times, I wouldn't expect you to be skeptical.

Dennis:Not skeptical? Obviously, you didn't read my pamphlet, pictures from which you pirated and posted on the Web. I say quite clearly that almost everyone who reports the "Lights" is undoubtedly seeing automobile headlights on Hwy 67 between Presidio and Marfa. Can't get much more skeptical than that

: : It is true that tourists will pull over to the roadside viewing area and make fools of themselves over distant automobile headlights om Hwy 67, but this rather begs the question, which is basically a chicken and egg one. Are we to assume, for example, that the so-called "Lights" came first, or that the Marfa Chamber of Commerce and Tourist Development Board, Inc., did? It's one thing to blame the latter for taking advantage of the former, whatever the former might be, but another thing altogether to accuse the latter of actually creating the former out of more or less thin air. After all, if there were no original stimulus whatsoever, we might expect to see roadside pull-overs for the Sanderson, Marathon and Alpine Lights, indeed for virtually any vantage point overlooking a remote highway by the dark of night. : I don't think it's anything as complicated as that. I think the Lights are simply a superstition that has grown over the years, a la Bigfoot, the Bermuda Triangle, and Nessie. Many people, unfortunately, are blindly superstitious, and will accept the most fantastic tales. Marfa would be foolish not to take advantage of this money-making opportunity.

: : The fact of the matter is that so-called "ghost lights" have a long and honorable (and pre-auto) history, as in, variously, corpse lights, will-o'-the-wisp, fox fire, ignis fatuus, and so on, perhaps in common with St. Elmo's fire and ball-lightning. The latter was long regarded as anathema by atmospheric scientists, but is now generally recognized as a real phenomenon even though there is no commonly accepted comprehensive theory to account for its existence. The same is true of earthquake lights and glowing mountain peaks in the Andes, as a glance at the immense collected works of William Corliss would reveal in an instant, would you but take the time. : I don't put much stock in old superstitions. Old tales of spooks and ghost lights don't mean much to me.

Dennis:Doesn't matter whether you put stock in 'em or not, dude. Fact of the matter is, ball lightning, for example, is reported all the time. Look it up in the literature. I merely mentioned historical examples to indicate that "light balls" have been around for a long time in general, and before automobile headlights in particular.

: : So the fact that someone mistakes car headlights on Hwy 67 for the real Marfa Lights -- assuming there is such a thing -- doesn't disprove the phenomenon as such, it merely proves that what that particular person saw was indeed automobile headlights. There's a vast -- indeed, a world -- of difference between the two assumptions. : Then prove the Lights are of a mysterious source. It should be easy - hundreds of people see them each night. They've been photographed a million different ways, videotaped ad nauseum, yet not one person has been able to get one "up close". It should be pretty easy - the Lights are confined to a small area (right near a highway, uncoincidentally, hehe.)

: : It should go without saying that if there is a real luminous phenomena in the area, then neither ghosts nor aliens have anything remotely to do with it. That does not, however, preclude something unusual and entirely natural, but presently little understood, from occurring in and around Mitchell Flat outside Marfa. Just because you've seen a gullible believer make a fool of him or herself, doesn't render you immune to being a gullible skeptic. After all, all you've really observed is the observer, not the phenomenon itself, again, assuming there is one.

Dennis:Who said they had to be of a "mysterious" -- as opposed to merely presently unknown -- source? Ball lightning is mysterious only in that physicists don't presently have a working explanantion for it. The same is true of galaxy distribution in some quarters of the universe, and so on. No one claims a mysterious source, necessarily, for such phenomena, by merely pointing out that current theories don't account for them. But since you don't write for the above, and therefore are presumably skeptical about everything, I suppose we can just turn to you for any questions anyone may have about anything? It's nice to know -- even if, excuse me -- I remain somewhat skeptical.

: : But let's assume the real phenomenon only manifests one, two, three or four times a year. Bluntly, you show up for an hour with a pair of binoculars, witness some headlights and associated human behavior, and then close the file on the Marfa Lights -- Solved! -- as if they were supposed to manifest upon the minute of your arrival at the parking lot for your own personal inspection. (Crocker spent more than a hundred hours in the field before he came away with a single promising picture.) The Greeks had a six-letter word for this sort of attitude. It began with an h and ended in an s. : That's nice. The modern-day English language has a term for folks who believe tales without the slightest shred of proof: An eight-letter word that begins with a g and ends with an e.

: BTW, did you see those fantastic Marfa Lights movies at that page I have linked? Amazing, eh? I wonder why they won't place my personal account of the Marfa Lights on their page?

Dennis:No, I didn't. Dennis

5.....Posted by Scott LaRoche on November 08, 1996 at 12:23:03: In Reply to: Re: Marfa Mystery Lights posted by Dennis on November 07, 1996 at 19:59:59

: : : : As the esteemed author, well, the author, anyway, of A Viewer's Guide to the Marfa Lights, I hope I may be permitted my two cents' worth on the subject. For one thing, I was curious as to why, having reproduced a couple of Ansen Seale's photos from my little pamphlet, you overlooked(?) the one by James Crocker which appears on page seven of same. Could it be because said photo doesn't support the headlight theory? : : No. I already went through this with you, Dennis, a few months ago. It is quite easy to duplicate the results of that photograph just by opening the shutter and jiggling the camera around. : No, you didn't go through this with me, Scott. I e-mailed you the above several months ago, true, but you either neglected or failed to respond to same. No, I responded. You either a) ignored the message, b) didn't receive it, or c) are lying. : : : In fact, if you'll examine the latter closely, you'll see that it contains both headlights -- and something else. The headlights are visible as a straight, once-broken line on the very righthand side of the picture. Whatever else the other thing is, it is clearly and obviously not automobile headlights. Unfortunately, the b&w reproduction is of very poor quality, compared to the color original. : : I'd be happy to post the original. Again, this is quite easy to duplicate - even a Photo 101 student can do it. Put the camera on a tripod, open the shutter, and expose the film for a minute. Car headlights will appear as lines. Then have someone else - even the photographer, run around in front of the camera with a flashlight. Voila! : : : I don't claim to know what Crocker photographed -- nor do I in any way mean to suggest that it is anything remotely paranormal in nature. It's conceivable, after all, that the picture is a clever hoax, perhaps of a colleague running around on the desert floor with a flashlight, or some other light source, held high, risking being impaled by a Spanish Dagger in the process. However, I have been to the site where the photo was taken, in company with Crocker, and have no particular reason to doubt his account of the photo's circumstances. : OK, so one minute you say the photo can be duplicated by jiggling the lens, the next by having a colleague run around with a flashlight. Well, which is it? And if it's so easy to do, why don't you duplicate it and post your own picture? It's quite simple to understand how to hoax a photo like the one in your pamphlet.

Scott: Maybe you just can't understand the rather simple concept. I'll try again. Mount a camera on a tripod. Point the camera at a moving light source - say, cars traveling down a road at night. Open the shutter. After 30 seconds or so, run around in front of the camera with a flashlight. Close the shutter. When you develop the negative and produce a print, you will see straight lines from the car lights, and an unidentifiable squiggle of light. In fact, I did do this in my Photo 101 class. I'll see if I can dig it up, scan it, and post it just for you. Meanwhile, you can see the same effect on an old album cover by the band Genesis. The title is "And Then There Where Three". Same effect.

: : OK. Since you're a MUFON editor and contributor to Omni magazine and Fortean Times, I wouldn't expect you to be skeptical. : Not skeptical? Obviously, you didn't read my pamphlet, pictures from which you pirated and posted on the Web. I say quite clearly that almost everyone who reports the "Lights" is undoubtedly seeing automobile headlights on Hwy 67 between Presidio and Marfa. Can't get much more skeptical than that.

Scott: Ah. I "pirated" those pictures. I went out of my way to give proper credit, even listing your address to let people know where they can buy your pamphlet. I corresponded with you numerous times concerning the Marfa Headlights, and never did you indicate your disapproval. Not once. I'll be happy to remove the photographs and all references to you and your pamphlet.

: : : It is true that tourists will pull over to the roadside viewing area and make fools of themselves over distant automobile headlights om Hwy 67, but this rather begs the question, which is basically a chicken and egg one. Are we to assume, for example, that the so-called "Lights" came first, or that the Marfa Chamber of Commerce and Tourist Development Board, Inc., did? It's one thing to blame the latter for taking advantage of the former, whatever the former might be, but another thing altogether to accuse the latter of actually creating the former out of more or less thin air. After all, if there were no original stimulus whatsoever, we might expect to see roadside pull-overs for the Sanderson, Marathon and Alpine Lights, indeed for virtually any vantage point overlooking a remote highway by the dark of night. : : I don't think it's anything as complicated as that. I think the Lights are simply a superstition that has grown over the years, a la Bigfoot, the Bermuda Triangle, and Nessie. Many people, unfortunately, are blindly superstitious, and will accept the most fantastic tales. Marfa would be foolish not to take advantage of this money-making opportunity. : : : The fact of the matter is that so-called "ghost lights" have a long and honorable (and pre-auto) history, as in, variously, corpse lights, will-o'-the-wisp, fox fire, ignis fatuus, and so on, perhaps in common with St. Elmo's fire and ball-lightning. The latter was long regarded as anathema by atmospheric scientists, but is now generally recognized as a real phenomenon even though there is no commonly accepted comprehensive theory to account for its existence. The same is true of earthquake lights and glowing mountain peaks in the Andes, as a glance at the immense collected works of William Corliss would reveal in an instant, would you but take the time. : : I don't put much stock in old superstitions. Old tales of spooks and ghost lights don't mean much to me. : Doesn't matter whether you put stock in 'em or not, dude. Fact of the matter is, ball lightning, for example, is reported all the time. Look it up in the literature. I merely mentioned historical examples to indicate that "light balls" have been around for a long time in general, and before automobile headlights in particular.

Scott: You sound very bitter, "dude". I never said ball lightning was a supersitition. I am merely pointing out that the mysterious Marfa Lights are car headlights. Don't be so bitter.

: : : So the fact that someone mistakes car headlights on Hwy 67 for the real Marfa Lights -- assuming there is such a thing -- doesn't disprove the phenomenon as such, it merely proves that what that particular person saw was indeed automobile headlights. There's a vast -- indeed, a world -- of difference between the two assumptions. OK. So why should anyone assume that there's anything mysterious in Marfa when no proof of anything mysterious exists? : : Then prove the Lights are of a mysterious source. It should be easy - hundreds of people see them each night. They've been photographed a million different ways, videotaped ad nauseum, yet not one person has been able to get one "up close". It should be pretty easy - the Lights are confined to a small area (right near a highway, uncoincidentally, hehe.) : : : It should go without saying that if there is a real luminous phenomena in the area, then neither ghosts nor aliens have anything remotely to do with it. That does not, however, preclude something unusual and entirely natural, but presently little understood, from occurring in and around Mitchell Flat outside Marfa. Just because you've seen a gullible believer make a fool of him or herself, doesn't render you immune to being a gullible skeptic. After all, all you've really observed is the observer, not the phenomenon itself, again, assuming there is one. : Who said they had to be of a "mysterious" -- as opposed to merely presently unknown -- source? Ball lightning is mysterious only in that physicists don't presently have a working explanantion for it. The same is true of galaxy distribution in some quarters of the universe, and so on. No one claims a mysterious source, necessarily, for such phenomena, by merely pointing out that current theories don't account for them. But since you don't write for the above, and therefore are presumably skeptical about everything, I suppose we can just turn to you for any questions anyone may have about anything? It's nice to know -- even if, excuse me -- I remain somewhat skeptical.

Scott: MUFON and skepticism don't readily mix.

: : : But let's assume the real phenomenon only manifests one, two, three or four times a year. Bluntly, you show up for an hour with a pair of binoculars, witness some headlights and associated human behavior, and then close the file on the Marfa Lights -- Solved! -- as if they were supposed to manifest upon the minute of your arrival at the parking lot for your own personal inspection. (Crocker spent more than a hundred hours in the field before he came away with a single promising picture.) The Greeks had a six-letter word for this sort of attitude. It began with an h and ended in an s. : : That's nice. The modern-day English language has a term for folks who believe tales without the slightest shred of proof: An eight-letter word that begins with a g and ends with an e. : : BTW, did you see those fantastic Marfa Lights movies at that page I have linked? Amazing, eh? I wonder why they won't place my personal account of the Marfa Lights on their page? : No, I didn't.

Scott: Why not? You are an expert. Right? You should evaluate the date. There are two Quicktime movies on the Web being promoted as images of the mysterious lights. Why don't you evaluate them?

Copyright (C) 2001 Dr. Sten Odenwald